f.lapo.it

Thoughts on Avengers:Endgame

I watched Endgame a few days ago. I'd like to watch it again, but I'll post my thoughts in the comments.

Spoiler warning for obvious reasons

#Marvel #Avengers #AvengersEndgame #Endgame

All in all, I liked the movie. I think the first part is very slow and not really interesting, but I found the second half packed full of fanservice (Mjolnir!) I loved - even though some parts are a bit cheesy.
I went to see the movie nearly spoiler-free, i had seen the first trailer and I heard the rumors of the quantum realm being of importance. I didn't see Ant Man and the Vasp and I was a bit afraid I'd miss something important, but I'm glad I didn't.

There are a few things story-wise that didn't 100% convince me and I guess there are a some holes, but I think the good things of this movie outweight the worse ones.

I liked the epilogues they gave to Tony Stark and Steve Rogers. Tony has always been my favourite MCU character and I loved his character arc over the many movies he was part of. I saw him start of ass a playboy warmonger who repented, his main problem being he's an irresponsible person who is has to take care of himself and others. He got PTSD and depression, he has a difficult relationship with his father that paints his whole character arc and is reflected on his own relationship with Peter Parker, and then he becomes dad, but in the end sacrifices himself. The story ends with the same words that started everyhing: "I am Iron Man". Definitely cheesy and fanservice, but I did love that moment.
The mid-credit scene is a celebration of all the main actors that starred in the MCU, and the after-credits "scene" is the Marvel logo with the sound of Tony hammering his first Iron Man helmet. I liked how the end of the MCU so far (and of Tony Stark's character) goes back to when everything started.
I was expecting Captain America to die, but I like that he didn't. I find his epilogue fitting, and I'm curious to see what Bucky and Sam will do now, since both have a strong connection to Steve, I like the chemistry between them two and both have been Captain America in the comics.
One thing that I'm more torn about are Natasha and Clint. These are two characters I loved in Avengers and are among my favourite MCU characters since that movie.
I'm not 100% sold on Natasha guiding the "Avengers" after the snap, I think her feelings and actions are a bit forced, or at least it's not how I expected Black Widow to behave.
The same is true for Clint Barton's time as Ronin, I'm not sure how he goes from losing his family to blindly murdering criminals. It's a trope I know but I think that even a little bit more build-up and introduction/explanation would have been better. We see Barton with his family at the beginning, and when we see him again he's on a rampage.

I did like the scene of the soul stone though, because while I was expecting that one of them would sacrifice for the other, I really didn't know who of the two it would be, in both cases it would have been a very good and strong choice.
One thing I did not like was Captain Marvel. I didn't like her in her own movie, I think she's not a sympathetic character, she has no flaws and no character growth in that movie, she's arrogant and in general not a character I liked. In Endgame she has even less depth, she doesn't have much screen time but she comes off as stiff, unpleasant and unlikable.
And she's overpowered, in a way that makes her uninteresting. In her movie at the end she unlocks her powers and the fights from that moment on just aren't a challenge for her, she beats her ex-allies, then Yon Rogg, then Ronar's ship with no effort at all. And the same happens in Endgame, when she shows up she's basically a deus ex machina, a plot device rather than a character. The MCU movies are made of plot twists and moments when tides turn (the first ones that come to my mind in this film are when Hulk or Tony snap their fingers, when the revived characters return to the battlefield, when Cap wields Mjolnir,...), but Carol's one just felt boring. I don't know if it's her powers that are boring, if the action scene itself wasn't good, maybe because it's a repetiton of the last fight in her movie, or maybe I just don't like to watch her use her powers. But maybe my main problem with her is that she is flawless and I don't find her relatable, she doesn't struggle and thus her power moments don't really mean much to me.
Yeah, she's a bit too much «you know, I could do this all by myself, single-handedly, but the universe is vast and I'll leave Earth to you, thanks».
I didn't dislike her, though, but I still have to see her movie, so, well, maybe.
Patrick Marchiodi friendica (via ActivityPub)
That's definitely one part of the problem, but I'm not sure if I'm able to explain what I mean, because that's the part I find less important.
My whole point is: I love characters that grow, I love stories that put character into difficult situations, where they must face challenges, where they are limited by their faults and flaws. In those situations, whatever they do and however they react, the characters tell us something about them, they get deeper. And if they manage to face their flaws, they change and grow. Tony Stark is a perfect example of this, he's full of very obvious flaws, he is faced with them many times and he grows. He doesn't overcome every problem, he's still flawed at the end of this movie, but I feel I've come to know him so much more.
This isn't true for Carol Danvers: she's emotionally unassailable, she's confident, strong, she's powerful. She's never in a situation where she struggles, and she has no internal flaws that make her interesting. I find her boring, and her perfection/power mixed with her confidence and snarkiness make her dislikable to me.
I think Captain America is a great counter example for a "perfect" character who's still very likable and relatable and interesting: first and foremost, he's brave, caring and strong but at the same time he's also humble and compassionate. The situations where he shines as a character are those where his optimistic and simplistic view are challenged, or when he is defending someone dear. Steve Rogers fights for his ideals, for what he thinks is good and right, and to protect the people he loves. You can challenge him putting his ideals or his friends into danger. Carol Danvers doesn't have this, imo.
Of course Cap had half a dozen movies to grow and become the character he is now, in his first movie and in Avengers he was still quite simple, but he was already idealistic, compassionate and relatable. Under the muscles he's a kid from Brooklin, Carol is a soldier.
Not a great counter example to me: I feel for him quite exactly the feelings you describe for her. ^^
But I see your point.
One thing that made me sqee, partly because I really wasn't expecting it, was Pepper Potts using an Iron Man/Rescue suit. I've always been a fan of Tony Stark and love the idea of the Iron Man suit, and I always liked heroic female characters, and Pepper Potts in particular. When I discovered that she had worn an armor in the comics I was hoping to see it happen in the MCU too, and when I saw her join the fight I just jumped up and down in my seat like a child. I think they also managed to make her feel distinct from both warmachine and iron man, and I really liked that.
I do think it's forced to see Pepper Potts fighting "outta nowhere", I could guess she did use the suit in the five years we didn't see, but Tony does say she doesn't like his gifts, so I don't think she would use the armor when they just lived happily together? Character plot hole maybe, but I can't hear you over the fanboy in me screaming :P
I also utterly loved dat Thor.
Patrick Marchiodi friendica (via ActivityPub)
I didn't dislike Thor, but he didn't really resonate with me. I found him funny in some scenes and I liked his dialogue with his mother. Thinking of it, maybe my problem with this interpretation of Thor is that he's pathetic, but played for laughs. I feel pity for him, but the movie doesn't really seem to make that the main point of the character and his arc, he's mainly played for laughs. And laughing for someone in a situation like Thor's is... well, not the kind of behavior I usually have ^^

Would you like to expand what you did like about him? I'm interested in hearing another point of view :D
Uhm, I didn't read him as pathetic, more like "normal" and with normal-level problems and situations, but still capable of kinda coping and still going on, while being on the verge of a complete meltdown (which also seems pretty normal to me). I'm not sure, but something like that.
Patrick Marchiodi friendica (via ActivityPub)
Oh, I also loved every bit of the elevator scene, on so many levels! :D
Lil' Beanie unkn (via DFRN)
I'm going today.. this is one movie I will not review spoilers for before seeing it. I would love your non-spoiler opinions, however. But, I understand. It is a killer to talk about movies without the benefit of describing specific scenes.
Patrick Marchiodi friendica (via ActivityPub)
It's a bit difficult to me to comment on the movie without spoiling, because what does and doesn't count as spoiler varies a lot form person to person. I could say I liked the film and that could already be a spoiler for some.

As a very general opinion, i think the beginning is a bit slow, it has a lot of great moments for fans and overall I think it's a worthy conclusion to the MCU so far. I'm not sure about the plot because I think there are a few plot holes (or at least murky passages), but I'm not very picky on plots, as long as the character arcs work.

It's not a perfect movie, but I can't say that I was disappointed.


(i know you read the spoilery comments, but I think it can be handy to have a spoiler-free comment ready if needed, so thanks for asking ^^)
Bob Lai diaspora (via DFRN)
Going on Thursday.
Lil' Beanie unkn (via DFRN)
Okay.. looked at the previous comments.. can't help myself. I feel I have to defend the unpopular Carol Danvers.. whom I will hither to call tough chick. Captain Marvel tells a very specific story about a very driven character who had to grow a pair to be the person she wanted to be. I've met people like this. Her depiction is consistent. IMO, Brie Larson gave us a solid performance there, as unlike-able as the character was. I do not know tough chick from the comics b/c I was never interested in her post Hot Miss Marvel character. Frankly, I was deeply saddened Marvel Studios chose to eliminate Hot Miss Marvel from their films but I understand that, like Vision, it didn't serve the films.

Hawkeye's devolution seems entirely reasonable to me. Given his warrior nature, what you claim he is doing after his losses would be exactly what I would expect. Yakusa/mafia/drug-lord types shouldn't be messed with -- Deadpool 2 had the right idea.
Patrick Marchiodi friendica (via ActivityPub)
I really want to like Captain Marvel's character and I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of people who liked her. I understand that she's the archetypical tough woman, but I feel what makes a strong character deep and interesting are his weaknesses. There are a lot of strong women who had to grow a pair in the MCU, Black Widow herself, but also Scarlet Witch, Gamora, Okoye,.. but we still see the moments when they are vulnerable and human, I feel Carol ist still missing that kind of character depth.
It feels to me like we have a full-formed strong character without being shown on screen how she became who she is. I feel like I don't understand her motifs and her feelings.

Which might be perfectly fine and very intentional, being the cis white dude that I am, maybe Carol simply isn't a character that's meant to be relatable to me and what other people see as obvious character traits that make them like her, I just don't see those traits, or see them differently ^^
Lil' Beanie unkn (via DFRN)
I, too, have a more serious problem with ScarJo's character, she has become colder and harder and more shut-off than she was as Nick Fury's spy. She was always a good, perhaps unmatched, fighter in a crunch but her fight sequence against Proxima Midnight at the Wakanda final battle was too unlike her. I think the Russos have minimized her character into some kind of NPC. Nothing against Johansson's acting but definitely a strike against the directors. I feel like Whedon got her character right.. from Winter Soldier on, her emotional characterisation has been nerfed more and more.
Lil' Beanie unkn (via DFRN)
I have two wishes for Black Widow in the future.. one that her film is not set in the past, two that she returns to her original Jon Favreau / Joss Whedon form.
Lil' Beanie unkn (via DFRN)
Just came back from Endgame. The Russos absolutely redeemed Captain Marvel, no worries, Patrick. Thankfully, very happy to report they redeemed Black Widow. Endgame is the best MCU and Marvel movie made now. The Guardians of the Galaxy is slightly different now. Honestly don't know where this franchise will be going in the future.
Lil' Beanie unkn (via DFRN)
Carol Danvers is an interesting character in this film given the Captain Marvel movie we saw previously. She does justify herself to the others. We don't get any backstory here. She is competent and responsible but her responsibilities seem to be greater than Thor's. She is minimally-used in this movie but also appropriately used. Thinking.. were there any deus ex moments. Honestly, IMO, there were not. But, the Captain Marvel being called in by the surviving Avengers scene.. has either vanished from my memory or wasn't in the movie. I am honestly torn with whether this incredible movie was worth seeing in iMAX.. the sound was really loud there are pros and cons to that but I found that irritating. I didn't see it in 3D b/c that hurts my eyes. I might have been better served watching from the back and the seats were uncomfortable.. but I suspect it was worth it all for this experience. Does anyone know whether the IMAX and regular films have identical content? Anyway, I suspect the scene in the end-credits of Captain Marvel was the only time we see Carol Danvers appearing before the Avengers in their facility for the first time. It was not in the film I just watched.
Carol appearing for the first time in front of the survived Avengers and asking where Nick Fury is, is the mid-credits scene of Captain Marvel. A friend of mine was wondering too why it wasn't in Endgame, and I didn't understand why he would think it would be, since mid- and after-credits scenes never appear in the movie they are teasing, afaicr. But maybe that scene was used in some trailer for Endgame? I avoided every possible spoiler and only watched the first trailer, where that scene is not featured, but maybe it's in some other trailer (it wouldn't be the first time that trailers feature content that is not in the movie itself)
Lil' Beanie unkn (via DFRN)
Another thought came to me.. there may be a time paradox in the Endgame movie now. I am speaking about Loki's escape. But, I might be wrong in this. Frigga is a self-confessed witch with great knowledge and she trained Loki. It will be interesting to see what they do with this.
Lil' Beanie unkn (via DFRN)
The significant spoilers and now I don't have to mention them. Fat Thor.. oops.. that one just sort of popped out! xD
Lil' Beanie unkn (via DFRN)
At the end of Ant-man, there was a scene with Bucky's metal arm in an industrial vice and Steve and Falcon brain-storming about what to do with Falcon saying I know a guy.. much of which was reconstructed in Civil War. So, yes it has happened.. I saw Captain Marvel, Disney used the first appearance post-credit scene heavily in their Endgame trailers. And, probably, they felt everyone going into the film would have this in their heads.. I did. But, I wonder about audience members who didn't see either. Would their introduction to Captain Marvel be a little overwhelming as in deus ex?
Patrick Marchiodi friendica (via ActivityPub)
Carol was in the first part of the film, when they go kill Thanos, so she's not totally unfamiliar when she joins the final battle. ^^
Lil' Beanie unkn (via DFRN)
True, but I was referring to the beginning. Her excuse, in hind-sight, of needing to help the rest of the universe seems weak now, considering how reversing the snap would correct most of the universe's issues.

To the uninitiated, she was Tony Stark's saviour and in the Avenger pow-wow advocating retrieving the stones to bring everyone back and then leading the attack to over-power Thanos. We did get to see the no-flinching scene after she brought what I assume was the Milano to the Avengers HQ.
I found this discussion quite good, they make a couple of solid points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9k3cVkve40

I definitely like their reasoning about fan service, which more or less boils down to "if it's deserved and earned, if you correctly built up to it, if it's not rushed, forced or gratuitous, then it's not fanservice, itìs payoff." And I agree. There are definitely some things that feel rushed and forced (e.g. Cap handing over the shield is a bit too sudden, the "girl power" moment was great but I would have liked to get to it more naturally, and so on), but some others are the right, final payoff for a 22 movie, 10+ years buildup: Cap wielding Mjolnir, the "Avengers Assemble" scene, "I am Iron Man", the many callbacks.

Another great review is this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pizUVqgguCM
I like CaptainMidnight because he, like me, values character over plot. The whole argument he makes about the plot holes and inconsistencies of the time travel rules resonates a lot with me: I did notice them, but it's not something I'll get mad over, especially since they're outbalanced by some really memorable character moments